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	<title>Comments on: Religious Conservatives Unite for &#8220;Religious Civil Disobedience&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/</link>
	<description>Feminism Through the Looking Glass of Different Perspectives</description>
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		<title>By: The Catholic Church Responds to Same-Sex Marriage Employment Requirements by Ending All Spousal Benefits &#171; Feminist Looking Glass</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-863</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Catholic Church Responds to Same-Sex Marriage Employment Requirements by Ending All Spousal Benefits &#171; Feminist Looking Glass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] truly unbelievable, but, of course, there are many truly unbelievable things that the church does (see this and this for examples). Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The Catholic Church is [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] truly unbelievable, but, of course, there are many truly unbelievable things that the church does (see this and this for examples). Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The Catholic Church is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Matthews&#8217; Interview of Bishop Thomas Tobin &#171; Feminist Looking Glass</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Matthews&#8217; Interview of Bishop Thomas Tobin &#171; Feminist Looking Glass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] blatant attempts to force its will on government officials.  (For instance, see this and this and this.)  Certainly, I thought that I was not going to write any more about the dispute on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blatant attempts to force its will on government officials.  (For instance, see this and this and this.)  Certainly, I thought that I was not going to write any more about the dispute on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your quiet and respectful dialogue.  That, I find refreshing. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your quiet and respectful dialogue.  That, I find refreshing. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, we&#039;&#039;ll just have to disagree on a lot of things.  But I do agree with you on the word &quot;marriage.&quot;  It would be better if there could be different words for the act done by a government and the act done by a church.  That would be a good dialog to have, but almost no one ever says anything about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, we&#8221;ll just have to disagree on a lot of things.  But I do agree with you on the word &#8220;marriage.&#8221;  It would be better if there could be different words for the act done by a government and the act done by a church.  That would be a good dialog to have, but almost no one ever says anything about it.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Georgetown allowing benefits for same-sex couples is different from endorsing same-sex marriage.  I think the sticking point is the word &#039;marriage&#039;.  As a matter of fact, I would request that the government stop using the term &#039;marriage&#039; for whatever they perform, whether its for hetero- or homo-sexual couples.  The best the state can do is bond a couple contractually.  A marriage is a spiritual act, a covenant between the couple and God.  And that should remain the perview of the church to define.

Regarding the &#039;huge tax breaks&#039; that every charitable organization is entitled to (and get as long as they don&#039;t go around campaigning for candidates), what I want to know is how do you tax nothing?  The Church earns nothing it doesn&#039;t spend.  In fact, the Catholic Church, diocese for diocese, is in debt.  They give out all that they take in, so how do you tax that?  What &#039;organizational income&#039; or &#039;personal income&#039; does the Catholic Church have???  The property is usually donated.  But I&#039;ll tell you what, if it meant that we&#039;d have autonomy, I would rather pay property taxes.  Then again, what we&#039;d put into property taxes would be unavailable to use for services for the poor.

Regarding individual doctors and pharmacists, if I&#039;m a doctor and I tell patients ahead of time that I am morally opposed to contraception, birth control and abortion, that should be sufficient enough to allow me to operate my practice as I morally see fit.  Same for pharmacists-if I&#039;m asked to dispense drugs that provide abortifacient effects, and want to post that I will not dispense said drugs, or that my store doesn&#039;t dispense birth control devices, that&#039;s my business.   It&#039;s not necessarily a religious decision, but an ethical one.  I for one will only use ethical doctors.  Considering the choices in pharmacies, where there&#039;s a Walgreens, Walmart, or grocery store pharmacy in every town, why is it a requirement that a pharmacist would need to quit their profession because of an ethical decision not to dispense a certain drug??  Especially if (s)he tells the client up front that (s)he cannot ethically do so?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Georgetown allowing benefits for same-sex couples is different from endorsing same-sex marriage.  I think the sticking point is the word &#8216;marriage&#8217;.  As a matter of fact, I would request that the government stop using the term &#8216;marriage&#8217; for whatever they perform, whether its for hetero- or homo-sexual couples.  The best the state can do is bond a couple contractually.  A marriage is a spiritual act, a covenant between the couple and God.  And that should remain the perview of the church to define.</p>
<p>Regarding the &#8216;huge tax breaks&#8217; that every charitable organization is entitled to (and get as long as they don&#8217;t go around campaigning for candidates), what I want to know is how do you tax nothing?  The Church earns nothing it doesn&#8217;t spend.  In fact, the Catholic Church, diocese for diocese, is in debt.  They give out all that they take in, so how do you tax that?  What &#8216;organizational income&#8217; or &#8216;personal income&#8217; does the Catholic Church have???  The property is usually donated.  But I&#8217;ll tell you what, if it meant that we&#8217;d have autonomy, I would rather pay property taxes.  Then again, what we&#8217;d put into property taxes would be unavailable to use for services for the poor.</p>
<p>Regarding individual doctors and pharmacists, if I&#8217;m a doctor and I tell patients ahead of time that I am morally opposed to contraception, birth control and abortion, that should be sufficient enough to allow me to operate my practice as I morally see fit.  Same for pharmacists-if I&#8217;m asked to dispense drugs that provide abortifacient effects, and want to post that I will not dispense said drugs, or that my store doesn&#8217;t dispense birth control devices, that&#8217;s my business.   It&#8217;s not necessarily a religious decision, but an ethical one.  I for one will only use ethical doctors.  Considering the choices in pharmacies, where there&#8217;s a Walgreens, Walmart, or grocery store pharmacy in every town, why is it a requirement that a pharmacist would need to quit their profession because of an ethical decision not to dispense a certain drug??  Especially if (s)he tells the client up front that (s)he cannot ethically do so?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, thanks for the comment.  First, the Catholic church certainly is under no obligation to provide social services for the citizens of Washington, DC.  And therefore it is perfectly justified to stop providing those services for any reason at all.  That is, unless its reason for stopping the services is discriminatory.  I am not saying that the church is threatening to stop its services because of discrimination.  What I am saying is that they are trying to coerce (I used the term “extortion”) the D.C. City Council into abandoning its plan for same-sex marriage.

At the very least, that is very unseemly, even though it is not illegal.  Many would think it is just good hard-ball lobbying.  But it is certainly not unusual for the church to make compromises when it finds itself in a position where it believes its beliefs are not being followed by some group.  For instance, while the church is trying to coerce the D.C. Council, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111904001.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;church allows Georgetown University&lt;/a&gt; in the same city to “give[] benefits to some same-sex couples even though the university does not officially recognize that the beneficiaries are of the same sex.”    Therefore, the Catholic church is going against previous practice and trying now to draw a line in the sand.

I also wrote a blog recently about the “&lt;a href=&quot;http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/17/the-catholic-church-is-failing-to-meet-the-moral-imperative-of-supporting-the-health-care-legislation/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;moral imperative&lt;/a&gt;” of providing health care.    This threat to stop providing social services seems to be the antithesis of a “moral” decision.

You say that, as long as a Catholic church does not accept tax dollars to subsidize a hospital, a government cannot tell it what it has to do.  But remember that churches get a multitude of huge tax breaks on their property, organization income, personal income, etc.  I don’t see any reason for those tax breaks.  Do you?

But your comment was mostly about individuals being allowed to refuse to do something if it is against their beliefs.  For a doctor or pharmacist, that is fine if they are determining medical decisions for their own care.  (It is still problematic when  parents decline certain medical care for a child if the care is contrary to the church teachings.)  However, a doctor or pharmacist is employed in the field of medicine, not religion.  Her obligation is to provide for the medical needs of patients.  Any decision based on religious beliefs, rather than the medical needs of the patient, is contrary to that obligation.  It seems rather base for me to simply say that, if a pharmacist does not want to provide contraceptives, she would quit the profession.  But that’s the only solution I see.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, thanks for the comment.  First, the Catholic church certainly is under no obligation to provide social services for the citizens of Washington, DC.  And therefore it is perfectly justified to stop providing those services for any reason at all.  That is, unless its reason for stopping the services is discriminatory.  I am not saying that the church is threatening to stop its services because of discrimination.  What I am saying is that they are trying to coerce (I used the term “extortion”) the D.C. City Council into abandoning its plan for same-sex marriage.</p>
<p>At the very least, that is very unseemly, even though it is not illegal.  Many would think it is just good hard-ball lobbying.  But it is certainly not unusual for the church to make compromises when it finds itself in a position where it believes its beliefs are not being followed by some group.  For instance, while the church is trying to coerce the D.C. Council, the <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111904001.html" rel="nofollow">church allows Georgetown University</a> in the same city to “give[] benefits to some same-sex couples even though the university does not officially recognize that the beneficiaries are of the same sex.”    Therefore, the Catholic church is going against previous practice and trying now to draw a line in the sand.</p>
<p>I also wrote a blog recently about the “<a href="http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/17/the-catholic-church-is-failing-to-meet-the-moral-imperative-of-supporting-the-health-care-legislation/" rel="nofollow">moral imperative</a>” of providing health care.    This threat to stop providing social services seems to be the antithesis of a “moral” decision.</p>
<p>You say that, as long as a Catholic church does not accept tax dollars to subsidize a hospital, a government cannot tell it what it has to do.  But remember that churches get a multitude of huge tax breaks on their property, organization income, personal income, etc.  I don’t see any reason for those tax breaks.  Do you?</p>
<p>But your comment was mostly about individuals being allowed to refuse to do something if it is against their beliefs.  For a doctor or pharmacist, that is fine if they are determining medical decisions for their own care.  (It is still problematic when  parents decline certain medical care for a child if the care is contrary to the church teachings.)  However, a doctor or pharmacist is employed in the field of medicine, not religion.  Her obligation is to provide for the medical needs of patients.  Any decision based on religious beliefs, rather than the medical needs of the patient, is contrary to that obligation.  It seems rather base for me to simply say that, if a pharmacist does not want to provide contraceptives, she would quit the profession.  But that’s the only solution I see.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://feministlookingglass.com/2009/11/20/religious-conservatives-unite-for-religious-civil-disobedience/#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlookingglass.com/?p=2002#comment-413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the thing.  Whether I like your ideas or not, you are entitled to them.  And vice-versa.  So, as long as someone is not breaking any law, why would you demand that they do something they are morally opposed to?  Why not allow the free market to work?

If I&#039;m a doctor and I want to perform abortions, let me advertise it and let those who want it come on in!  If I&#039;m a doctor who&#039;s morally opposed, why should I be required to perform said procedure?  If I&#039;m a pharmacist, why should I not be allowed to post a sign saying that this pharmacy will not provide abortifacient drugs?  In regards to same-sex marriage, if that&#039;s morally against one particular (very large) group of people, why are they not just as entitled to blow off gay marriage as gays are to belittle married people if they so choose?
I will say this-as long as you&#039;re sucking at the government teat, you should be beholden to the government, so if you accept tax dollars to subsidize your hospital, the government has a right to tell you what you must do.  But if I&#039;m a private hospital (and most Catholic hospitals are private) and not taking government money, and you tell me I must provide abortion services, I can see where disobedience is necessary.  So the hospital will either be what it is, or will cease to be.  In this case, what you should understand is that you&#039;re also going to lose all the free services that Catholic hospitals provide to those who cannot pay...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the thing.  Whether I like your ideas or not, you are entitled to them.  And vice-versa.  So, as long as someone is not breaking any law, why would you demand that they do something they are morally opposed to?  Why not allow the free market to work?</p>
<p>If I&#8217;m a doctor and I want to perform abortions, let me advertise it and let those who want it come on in!  If I&#8217;m a doctor who&#8217;s morally opposed, why should I be required to perform said procedure?  If I&#8217;m a pharmacist, why should I not be allowed to post a sign saying that this pharmacy will not provide abortifacient drugs?  In regards to same-sex marriage, if that&#8217;s morally against one particular (very large) group of people, why are they not just as entitled to blow off gay marriage as gays are to belittle married people if they so choose?<br />
I will say this-as long as you&#8217;re sucking at the government teat, you should be beholden to the government, so if you accept tax dollars to subsidize your hospital, the government has a right to tell you what you must do.  But if I&#8217;m a private hospital (and most Catholic hospitals are private) and not taking government money, and you tell me I must provide abortion services, I can see where disobedience is necessary.  So the hospital will either be what it is, or will cease to be.  In this case, what you should understand is that you&#8217;re also going to lose all the free services that Catholic hospitals provide to those who cannot pay&#8230;</p>
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